Modesty and Beauty

[Mamselle Duroc]

I just finished reading A Return to Modesty by Wendy Shalit, and something she said in the book really intrigued me.

It was, essentially, that men actually find a woman clothed modestly more fascinating than a woman who's showing everything - not simply because he's a good man who likes to see a woman who respects herself and the men around her, so to speak - but because there's simply more mystery when a woman is modestly clothed. There's the thought that she guards so carefully whatever is under there that it must be worth having.

Briefly and frankly, you could say that modesty is sexy.

Now this thought came to me once or twice when I was between 14 and 16, and I always put it firmly in the back of my mind, because I was at that age when I was just exploring modesty, and extraordinarily self-conscious and all that. The idea that modesty could be in any way erotic was not something I wanted to think about.

I'm fairly sure that we'd all agree that modesty oughtn't to be frumpy, that it can consist of a very stylish beauty. But what about modesty consisting of sexual beauty? In a lot circles I've passed through I think this idea would be very abhorrent... there's the view that even though modest can be cute, it should kind of serve to stifle sexual feelings and desires.

Of course modesty shouldn't incite lust. But I'm still trying to work out in my mind some of this... does anyone have any thoughts on how modesty and the erotic are related, and how they ought to be related?

[Duchess]

I actually responded to this last week, but when I went to post, I lost everything and didn't have the time to repost everything.

This is a very interesting topic. It is wonderful that you were considering all of this when you were younger. I remember how confusing it was for me when I was teenager and even in my early 20s, trying to figure out what was actually stylish and modest and what was too revealing and inciting lust rather than admiration and true beauty. It was hard to tell, sometimes, with so many conflicting messages in the media and stores or with people who you trust telling you in different ways that "if you have it, flaunt it". Unfortunately, things regarding modesty that used to be so cut and dried 50 years ago has become so blurred that even those adults that we looked up to for guidance sometimes aren't the best to guide young ladies into wearing appropriate attire because they have been confused or become used to the new level of "appropriate" attire.

In regards to your question with the relation between modesty and the erotic, I believe there is a fine line. When you look up "erotic" in the dictionary, there are a few definitions which pretty much mean the same thing. I'll just focus on these two:

1. Of or concerning sexual love and desire.
2. Dominated by sexual love or desire.

I'll get to 1 last and will start with 2.

I agree that modest attire shouldn't be meant to induce lust and I believe that most men and women who do work at dressing modestly do not have the goal of inciting lust in those viewing them. There are unfortunately, some people, who are turned on by the "good girl" or "good boy". You can be dressed in the most unsexual fashion, but the thought of corrupting a good girl or good boy can truly incite lust and desire. You will be viewed as extremely sexy because of your mystery. A modest woman or a modest man really can't do anything about that. Those people are "dominated" by sexual desire of the person's shell rather than the whole body and soul. There is no real love of the person, just a primitive impulse to have his or her physical way with the other. That's not to say that for some of these people, it might evolve into a more pure, unsexual desire of that person because he/she will get to really know that person and see the inner beauty of the life that he/she leads. That goes into focusing on definition 1...

"Of or concerning sexual love and desire" - A married couple will experience sexual love. It is a wonderful way of expressing and sharing your love to each other within the sacrament of marriage. This is where I believe modesty can coexist with the erotic. The inner and outer beauty of your spouse will incite you to want to partake in sexual love with him - the erotic. There is nothing wrong with finding your spouse sexually appealing as long as it is viewed as one way to love your spouse and not the only way in which you become dependant upon it. How I see modesty and the erotic work together is that you see that inner beauty of your spouse by the care in which he takes to dress modestly because he respects himself as a child of God and respects you. It makes you love him more in the various ways of love - eros being one of them. When eros is used in a spiritual way to complete and reconfirm the sacrament that both share, it is a beautiful thing because during that time you physically do become both one body and one soul.

When it is not that's when there is a problem.

I hope I made sense here.

[lizaanne]

Duchess - this is wonderful!

I will add that now that I'm in a sacramental marriage, it truly is amazing how my spouse sees me through his eyes of love for me. Dressed in the most simplest and modest of outfits for Mass or work sometimes, he just finds me extremely attractive. Not if I'm in something that I think would incite that sort of reaction, but a simple business suit or dress with tights is what "works" for him, so to speak.

I've never experienced this in any other relationship I've been in, which were always (sadly) focused only on the erotic, and not the love. It is refreshing, and yet almost a bit confusing at the same time. But something I accept very happily as one of the graces of sacramental love.

Great topic ladies!

~Liza

[Mamselle Duroc]

Thanks for your great posts!

I'm also kind of curious of how this works outside of marriage. Let me see what kind of illustration I can provide.

If you compare, for instance, a woman's body to chocolate, and let the man be a chocolate-lover (though those generally seem to be women, I do know a few guys who love chocolate almost as much as I do). And say, in a rather silly example, that the chap can't just steal the chocolate... he can only have it if it's his to have.

Now, you don't want to put the chocolate out there on the counter in the open, where it's right in full view and very tempting.

You also shouldn't disguise the chocolate in an ugly brown paper bag wrapping, hiding it away and pretending it doesn't exist.

Ideally, you package the chocolate in a lovely fashion... in a charming box, tied up with ribbon and whatnot. The chocolate isn't out on display, but it isn't masked. Its worth isn't cheapened by ugly-fying it... it's wrapped as something beautiful and special, but not out on display for anyone to take.

When you see chocolate wrapped up so, in the nice box tied with ribbon, you generally assume it's being saved for someone special. It isn't just for anyone to take... it's a beautiful gift for one particular person. And you know it must be good chocolate, too.

I see a lot of pressure being put on guys. There's the natural pressure they have from just being very visual, but I also see pressure from lots of modesty supporters... they encourage the 'wrap the chocolate up in a brown paper bag' approach, because they don't want the men to be even conscious of the chocolate.

And oftentimes the men are scolded if they find the nice ribbon-y wrapping attractive, and have a consciousness that the chocolate is indeed good and worth having. If he's a good man he won't be wanting to snatch it... he'll appreciate that it's for someone special and he'll respect that, even if it ends up that he's the someone special. But he'll still be aware of both facts: that the girl is sexually attractive, and that she's especially wonderful for also having dignity in her dress and behaviour.

Is there anything wrong with that... with a man finding a woman sexually attractive prior to marriage? Not in a lustful sort of way; just in a natural way. I mean, a fellow and his gal will be sexually attracted to each other prior to marriage, though if they're behaving rightly they'll remain chaste... in the same way, can a man find just a woman in general, not necessarily his particular intended, sexually attractive, though still remaining chaste in heart and mind?

[lizaanne]

Originally Posted by Mamselle Duroc

I see a lot of pressure being put on guys. There's the natural pressure they have from just being very visual, but I also see pressure from lots of modesty supporters... they encourage the 'wrap the chocolate up in a brown paper bag' approach, because they don't want the men to be even conscious of the chocolate.

This is a slippery slope - you then start getting into an extremest frame of mind that makes me think of the women of the Middle East who are practically punished for their beauty, and made to cover their beauty as if it's something to be ashamed of or embarrassed about.

Is there anything wrong with that... with a man finding a woman sexually attractive prior to marriage? Not in a lustful sort of way; just in a natural way. I mean, a fellow and his gal will be sexually attracted to each other prior to marriage, though if they're behaving rightly they'll remain chaste... in the same way, can a man find just a woman in general, not necessarily his particular intended, sexually attractive, though still remaining chaste in heart and mind?

There is nothing wrong with natural, God given, sexual attraction. It's how people choose to react to that attraction that makes it good or bad. We all have free will. We have the ability to control our urges, to know our own limits, and to have the strength of character, faith, and will to live within those limits without entering into sinful thoughts or actions.

It is very right and good for a couple to be sexually attracted to each other - it is one of the things that helps bring together life long sacramental unions. How do most people meet their spouses? By sight! Not everyone is instantly attracted to their future beloved, but in many cases it is what brings the couple together for the first time. And if they both know how to handle the situation, remain chaste, and not let the attraction go to far or run out of context, then it can be a good and healthy thing.

~Liza

[Duchess]

I agree with Liza. There is nothing wrong with finding someone sexually attractive. As Liza said, it's how you handle and react to that attraction. Continually respecting the person you care about or love helps with not thinking about having sexual relations with that person outside of marriage.

Having grown up around a lot of men -uncles, cousins, brother, etc. and having a very close relationship with my father, I understand that men do tend to be much more visual than most women. Although they can't help the immediate, initial thoughts they get when they see a beautiful woman, they CAN help what they do with the feelings. There's the choice of respecting that other woman and the other women in his life by quickly disregarding that initial thought or the choice to succumb to that thought and start fantasizing.

And believe me, if you are a beautiful woman, a paper bag won't hide it. You can be dressed as the frumpiest lady in town, but if a man is very visual and can tell that you are very beautiful, nothing will hide it. I think back to the past when women wore many things to cover themselves, even wearing gauzy, thin veils when traveling. Even though their faces couldn't be seen or if they were wearing tons of petticoats which hid their figures, the mystery of what was underneath prevailed for these men. Or just think about how a pair of beautiful eyes when the rest is covered up either by a fan or some sort of a veil can incite poetry and love. What the viewer does with this "vision" is his/her own choice and part of his/her free will.

Our physical appearance is a gift from God. It is part of nature which can be as beautiful as a flower. (Think of all the poetry of beautiful - and many times, chaste - women were compared to flower.) We don't want to flaunt it so as to purposely incite impure thoughts from others, but to allow it to naturally bloom in a purely beautiful, innocent and loving way is fine - at least to me. Although, perhaps I'm just not saintly enough to feel comfortable being dressed in a paper bag or a robe.